Discussion: occupations, worst clients ???Posted by Rocket on 11/22/2007
What occupations make the worst financial planning clients ???
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: occupations, worst clients ???Posted by skippy on 11/22/2007
Engineers.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: occupations, worst clients ???Posted by David Woods on 11/22/2007
Agreed, in my experience, engineers are the worst. Not because they over scrutinize everything, they do, but because they challenge everything. Scientists are bad too with attorneys a close second to engineers. Attorneys are bad because if they don't understand it (which is a pretty broad decription) then it must be wrong you must e incompetent.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: occupations, worst clients ???Posted by Kevin on 11/22/2007
Agreed and for much of Mr. Woods' reasoning.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: occupations, worst clients ???Posted by John L. Olsen on 11/22/2007
I LOVE to work with engineers. Yes, they challenge everything. That means they don't accept anything merely "from authority". They want - no, they demand - substantiation. (So should WE, fellow advisors).
But when you're willing and able to provide that substantiation, to disclose the logic, reveal the assumptions, and explain the conclusions underlying your recommendations, they'll LISTEN.
Sometimes, they'll keep asking for yet another proposal, to the point of ridiculousness (as we advisors see it). That's the complaint about engineers I hear the most from colleagues. But that can be dealt with. I prefer to address the "one more analysis/proposal" problem by putting it in engineering terms.
"Mr. Jones, are there times, in your professional experience, where more data won't give you any better confidence in the solution?"
Or, if it comes down to it, "have you ever dealt with a manager who keeps asking you to re-test and re-analyze because he can't seem to come to a decision.. where he seems to be suffering from 'analysis
paralysis'"?
They get that.
What I like best about dealing with engineers is that they understand better than most that THE NUMBERS ARE WHAT THEY ARE.
I had one fellow who had insisted "I don't believe in cash value insurance". I did a BTID analysis for him, using HIS assumptions as to rate of return, tax bracket, etc., and the numbers indicated that a permanent policy would produce better results IN HIS FACT SITUATION than would term and a "side fund".
He DID NOT WANT to believe the numbers, but he was too honest to deny that, GIVEN THE ASSUMPTIONS MADE, the cash value policy was the better deal for him.
He bought that cash value policy, not despite his engineering training, but because of it.
One suggestion I like to make to my students is to let the engineer client check the math and verify the assumptions. It works for me.
Just my two cents' worth...
John Olsen
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: occupations, worst clients ???Posted by The Observer on 11/22/2007
Actually, I'd vote for celebrities, particularly hollywood celebrities on the B list and below. They spend too much trying to look like A list celebs and are so used to having people around them who spend all day saying "yes", as they **** up for a piece of the pie, that they have a very distorted view of the world, money and "future"... particularly future because they believe the good times will always be around. It's a rare gem of a celeb that actually listens and takes advice. I will never take on another celebrity, I'm too old and too tired for that.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: occupations, worst clients ???Posted by Amber on 11/23/2007
I've found the worst is not an occupation, but an individual who is more interested in investment performance versus someone interested in comprehensive planning.
Amber
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: occupations, worst clients ???Posted by Jerry I on 11/24/2007
How to talk to engineers:
Given that so few of you like dealing with engineers I'm thinking of making it a target market. Perhaps I'll have little competition. I have a few engineers as clients and if you have patience with them it will be rewarded. I don't think like them but I do have patience so we often make a match.
It's critical that you find out their decision making process. You find that out by asking questions such as:
How did you choose your last advisor?
How do you know an investment is good?
What needs to happen for you to be happy in this relationship?
If they keep asking for alternative proposals you ask:
"Is this an intellectual exercise or is this going to help you make a decision?"
Now here is where you nail them:
Advisor: "Mr. Engineer, you like to make informed, educated decisions, right?"
Mr. Engineer: "Of Course."
Advisor: "I find that most engineers are men of their word. Is that true for you?"
Mr. Engineer: "Naturally."
Advisor: "If I give you the formula do you promise to solve the problem?"
At this point he has to say yes. If he doesn't you know you're dealing with someone you can't trust.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: occupations, worst clients ???Posted by skippy on 11/24/2007
Engineers don't like to be manipulated either. Good luck with those questions, though!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: occupations, worst clients ???Posted by Jerry I on 11/24/2007
You call it manipulation. I call it ethical persuasion. In sales he who asks the best questions usually wins.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: occupations, worst clients ???Posted by John L. Olsen on 11/24/2007
Jerry,
If those questions work for you - and for your clients - more power to ya.
To me, they seem manipulative and patronizing, and I wouldn't be comfortable being asked those questions, much less asking them myself.
That said....Diff'rent strokes!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: occupations, worst clients ???Posted by bluemarlin08 on 11/24/2007
I find engineers and other analyticals great to work . I always write down their objectives in our working together, ask if I left out anything or if what I worte down wasn't important. I keep referring back to their objectives and answering their questions and supporting my recommendations. The ones I have a problem with are those that change their objectives, then if that keeps up I drop out. The hardest clients for me are the amiable types, very difficult to get them, IMO, to make decisions.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: occupations, worst clients ???Posted by Kim Ranker Jolly on 11/25/2007
I also enjoy engineers. I'm hyper analytical myself though, so I think it's a matter of like gravitating to like.
Biggest challenge I've had with engineers (particulary the german variety) is a tendency to isolate aspects of the investment portfolio - and so I'm constantly having to explain the benefits of the big picture.
Because I deal primarily with clients who have concentrated stock positions due to stock options/company stock, we often use SMAs with a tax overlay manager - and the fixed portion isn't usually ideal. Feel like I have to explain a lot why a 1% gain on the fixed side isn't worth removing from the tax overly system to manage outside the platform. Ugh. But I appreciate that I CAN explain it to them, and they will listen and get it. It's more explanation time, but I'd take that over 80 year old widow who's terrified. It's just harder for me to speak that language.
As for my engineers - I've used the analogy of car engines - even if you have the best car in the world - odds are good that one of the parts isn't the best in the world. If you try to trade out the mediocre carborator for a better one, if it doesn't fit the system - it won't matter if it's the best in the world. You've ultimately detracted from
the performance. It may take some time - but they get that.
I do think professionals have a very high level of expectation and value advanced education. Not the ideal client for someone who's been run through the sales mill and needs to churn dollars quickly. At the end of the day - I think it all depends on the "culture" of your practice. If you are top gun producer who has little formal education - you probably don't want a lot of questions. But if you are more of a "geek" (and I use the term fondly) you're probably better off with educated types since simple sales pitches are probably hard for you to stomache. To each his own. At the end of the day... To thine own self be true. Find others like yourself.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: occupations, worst clients ???Posted by anonymous on 11/25/2007
"If you are top gun producer who has little formal education - you probably don't want a lot of questions."
I'm another one who doesn't like working with engineers. It has nothing to do with not liking questions. Rather, it has everything to do with the questions focusing on the unimportant. My experience is that they are excellent at seeing the tree, but don't understand that they are in the middle of a forrest. Can I sell to an engineer? Sure, but it takes extra time and effort which makes an engineer less profitable for my business.
By the way, that was a great car engine analogy. I'll have to steal that one from you.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: occupations, worst clients ???Posted by David Woods on 11/25/2007
My worst engineer experience was with one who gave a four page list of questions and comments on the return. One insigificant change was made. Must frustrating question? Why do I have to report muni interest. Umm, because its written into the law....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: occupations, worst clients ???Posted by Bryan, CFP on 11/26/2007
I started my career at a CPA firm that had a large actuarial practice. I worked with a lot of actuaries and CPA's. I currently have a lot of these former colleagues as clients now, some 16 years later. I don't think there's any particular type of occupation that makes a bad client but how you interact with certain types of people. I love
working with analytical types. My toughest clients are musicians, restaraunt owners and artists! I like working more with people who have my type of background. I can throw in a Fibonnacci reference to an actuary and it gets understood but someone might reference Gainsborough or Rothschild and I'm lost! Clients pick up on that and if some feel that the resonance isn't there we don't do work together. I have recognized that "some will, some won't, and so what..."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: occupations, worst clients ???Posted by Dudley on 11/26/2007
Professors
Doctors (mostly surgeons)
Apple computer owners (at least 4 years ago)
Why? 1. Because they believe they "know" more than you and 2. And they assume there must be a pre-known answer.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: occupations, worst clients ???Posted by Stephen on 11/26/2007
Realtors are the worst clients. They are cheap, don't want to save even though they make boatloads of money. They do not understand any other asset class apart from Real Estate!
Right now they are hurting for obvious reasons and hate to admit that I was right about the correction in real estate!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: occupations, worst clients ???Posted by Len Fettig, CFP on 11/26/2007
Clients to Avoid:
Realtors
Accountants
Attorneys
Engineers
Educators
Why? For some, they seldom visit the emotional side of the brain - trying instead to compute the best answer. They therefore have great difficulty in reaching a decision.
To avoid embarrassment, they prefer to be do-it-yourself people. Others are used to being in Control. They don't like the feeling of asking someone else for help.
As with any grouping, there is a wide range of individual personalities within the group. So being open to each engagement is still a good policy.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: occupations, worst clients ???Posted by John L. Olsen on 11/26/2007
Clients to avoid:
People who won't listen to advice that is (a) sound (b) substantiated by facts and logic.
People who are "shopping" for another opinion, before continuing to shop for yet another one.
People who will believe anything you tell them.
Control freaks.
People who cannot or will not pay for my advice (except when I'm giving it pro bono).
Clients to attract:
People who want facts and know how to recognize and evaluate facts.
People who want an advisor/client relationship.
People with complex issues.
People who want solutions, not mere analysis.
People who understand that the most expensive advice is bad advice.
- John Olsen
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: occupations, worst clients ???Posted by sam on 11/27/2007
David,
Totally agree with you. I find engineers, lawyers and school teachers are the worst. Again i agree not because they are super intelligent and analyze everything but because they don't GET IT !!!! and assumethat if they can't understand it something is wrong!
Sam
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: occupations, worst clients ???Posted by ManINaSuit on 11/27/2007
I have to say I disagree that engineers are bad clients. Several of my most profitable and favorite to work with are engineers.
Many of them I met through seminars and after I "broke their legs" they realized how little they really did know about financial stuff and how badly they needed me.
As centers of influence they refer friends and co-workers that easily convert to clients.
What's not to like?
If I define bad clients by occupation I find Dr's to be the biggest pains in the ****.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: occupations, worst clients ???Posted by Mr. Bill on 11/27/2007
to Jerry I - was that a Nick Murray moment I was having? Who was that? I've heard those lines before.
I would have to say Real Estate Investors make the worst clients. It's
all about real estate to them. They completely understand the power of
leverage and yet they cannot adequately apply the same principles to
investing (outside of real estate), not even something as simple as
life insurance.
Discussion: Re: occupations, worst clients ??? Posted by GT on 12/20/2007
John,
That was an excellent analogy for learning to work with engineers. If only I had figured that out 15 yrs ago!
I like the challenges presented by engineers, and scientific
professionals. When I speak with them, I can "sense" the gears turning
in their minds, and if we're not on their wavelength, they may be
apprehensive in having us serve their needs. This is why we need to
PROVE ourselves to them that we have the brass. IMO.
