Featured interview: Kelli Keough, head of product at J.P. Morgan Wealth Management

A look at her passion for increasing diversity in the industry, and wealthtech trends on the horizon.

Transcription:

Nicole Casperson: (00:07)

Hello, everyone happy Friday. I'm Nicole Casperson. I'm a journalist and founder of what the FinTech, a content platform and community where I write a biweekly newsletter for FinTech professionals. I host a podcast called humans of FinTech and I host events called FinTech is F I'm super excited to be here for this session. It is my pleasure to introduce Dr. Kelly Keo. She is the head of product for JP Morgan wealth management at JP Morgan, chase and co. Today. We're going to talk through Kelly's background and how she found her way into finance, why she wrote a book by the age of 30 and her passion for uplifting diversity in our industry, and also what future wealth tech trends are on her radar. Kelly. Welcome.

Kelly Keough: (00:53)

Thank you for having me.

Nicole Casperson: (00:59)

Should I give them my, she needs to hear or be heard more than me

Kelly Keough: (01:03)

Right now. Is it working now? There we go. All right.

Nicole Casperson: (01:07)

Confirmed. Awesome. Well, let's dive in. So your background has a huge influence on your career and why you chose to be a part of the industry. I wanna talk about first, maybe the imprint your family had on the early thoughts and kinda your perspectives of wealth building and investing.

Kelly Keough: (01:28)

So my family had absolutely nothing to do with wealth and investing. So I think that's the bottom line is my parents were school teacher school secretary. They were incredibly frugal. They knew the art of the budget. They lived within their means. They knew how to save, but they never in their entire life invested in the stock market or in anything else. And so that was a big gap in my upbringing.

Nicole Casperson: (01:54)

Yeah. And so did that kind of lead you into your interest in psychology and studying that at all?

Kelly Keough: (02:03)

I would say for me, psychology was more about understanding people. So the connectivity with my parents led me, I think a big part of being in financial services was understanding how so many people, even, not just when they were starting out, but later in their life really had no clue and how we as an industry needed to be able to bring the power of investing to more people. So for me, it was, I think the family influence later in my career, less so maybe psychology. My parents though being educators. My goal was to get the best education I could possibly. So I had to get a PhD.

Nicole Casperson: (02:44)

We love an ambitious woman. So let's talk about the book maybe first off, since we're talking a little bit about ambition, what made you decide? I wanna write a book by 30 or just write a book in general?

Kelly Keough: (02:58)

I think more so it was, I mean, I think it's about having those goals. It's about being able to lay something out there to achieve and to be pretty ambitious and audacious with it. But I also thought, I had a wonderful colleague in grad school and we realized that there was a gap in the way we were thinking about at this time social psychology, we wrote, we pulled together a book of essays on social psychology of gender, race, and ethnicity. And the reason for doing that was there at that time. No one was thinking about the three together in terms of all of the group dynamics and the impacts that stereotypes and so forth have on really a range of different folks. And then, so we looked at how there were similarities and how there were differences and that just hadn't been done. So yes, I wanted to do the book by 30. It was, I think it's important to have those kinds of goals. But more importantly was really taking a look at the dynamics that we could try to help people with.

Nicole Casperson: (03:55)

And those are three things that I think the pandemic accelerated the discussion around it more, right. Oh, very much that gender, race and ethnicity, all of those things come together and are massive influence in how we engage with our finances, but it wasn't always so comfortable to talk about before and maybe even now, right?

Kelly Keough: (04:16)

Yeah, no, I agree. But I do think that it is incumbent upon us in our firms to be able to push the envelope. And so for me I'm head of our diversity equity and inclusion council. I'm head of our women on the move. I also lead our inclusive investing work. And so for us, we focus on our employees and our clients. And so our goal with our employees is how do we make sure that they can bring their authentic self that they are as representative of our client base as they should be. So how do we recruit more diverse advisors, train folks so that they can speak to everybody. And then as we think about our clients, so our focus is how do we bring more folks into investing who historically may not have thought it was for them, or may have actually been prohibited in other ways or didn't feel like it would, they were welcome to it. And so with our inclusive investing focus, for example, with women, we are trying to help equalize our investment balances between our male and our female headed households. And we're doing that through a variety of different ways, but like an example right now, we're focused on how do we help people who are going through divorce, which is everybody but especially it can I mean, everybody in terms of, it's not just men or women,

Nicole Casperson: (05:40)

Usually everyone's going through yeah.

Kelly Keough: (05:42)

Not everybody's going through divorce, but really there are two folks in that, whether it's male female but how do we help people navigate that? Because it turns out to be a really big financial services challenge. So how do we educate our advisors? How do we help people through that? And then if we think about expanding our opportunities in the black, Latinx, Hispanic communities, we're going into the communities and actually through our branches, bringing education to more folks, because that, if I go back to my background, one of the biggest challenges is just not knowing and feeling comfortable talking about financial services. And so we're trying to go all the way into communities. One on one work with people in groups, with their influencer groups and help more people learn. just it makes me think about how just the other day, or earlier this week, betterment put out a survey about social responsible investing and ESG. And it was saying how majority of investors are interested in it, but literally don't have it in their portfolio because they have no idea how to understand it or how to even start. Right. And so it's interesting that we had like a behavioral finance session right before this, because we have to kind of start there when we're thinking about engaging our users or our clients in these types of portfolios or investing or whatever, especially when they want things to be so aligned with their values. Right. So it just makes me think like how do we even start by with that? Like, it's crazy to me that people like are interested in something, but then are like, I'm not gonna touch this cuz I don't understand. Right. It makes sense. But how do we help?

Kelly Keough: (07:28)

Yeah. So one of the lines I loved in the last session was the con concept of not only is it goals, but it's goals and values. And I think one of the challenges in our industry is we have been historically very product centric. And so I do think that concept of thinking about holistic needs, you've heard that throughout the conference, but really what that does is it helps us understand who are the people, what are their needs, and then think about what are the products that align with that as opposed to starting with the product and that can help us then better align products with values. And so for example, we at JP Morgan chase have recently purchased a company called open invest. The focus there is really clients indicating what they want and need or don't want in their portfolio. And then us aligning our investments to their desires, as opposed to us telling them what ESG is and us giving them an ESG score and saying, oh, go get an investment with it. No, let's start with your human values. And then let that flow through and then hold us accountable for how well your portfolio is actually aligning with your values.

Nicole Casperson: (08:42)

And that's been such a shift in the industry where, and this is kind of where technology steps in, right. Where we think we can leverage technology and create these like one size fits all solutions. Like, okay, well, if we create one solution for ESG, then great, we can, like you said, we can just pass it along to all of the ESG interested folks and they can figure it out from there when no, it's all about being so hyper customized. And like I said, that's where the technology steps in. But I think for maybe the everyday advisor or wealth manager, it can be intimidating. Like how do you even approach that technology leveraging technology to be more people-centric.

Kelly Keough: (09:22)

Yeah. Usually people separate the two. Yeah. So they think of there's technology or there's human-centric or people-centric advice. And I think that's one of our big steps in the industry forward. We talk about digitization, but we have done ourselves, a disservice by setting the two in contradiction with each other. But the reality is if we do technology well, first of all, what it does is it helps more people engage in financial services. We hear, for example, in some of our research with women, that they are more comfortable starting to invest on their own digitally using technology. And it's a way for them to learn. And then they start working with a human it's a way for them to step into it. And so we also know that our technology needs to become more human centric. That's the power of data. We talk about personalization a lot in our industry.

Kelly Keough: (10:16)

Personalization is about making technology for you aligning with your goals, your needs and then bringing insights that are specific to you. And that's the power of technology. It's a, both. The other part of it is you'll also, I think we've had these conversations about robos and there's another one this afternoon. The reality is most people want both. They want technology and they wanna talk to somebody. My job is to provide technology that then frees up our advisors to spend more time focusing on the hard stuff, the complex stuff, the personal stuff, the emotional stuff. That's what our job is in the industry. But it's, I think we cannot separate human centric and technology as two different things.

Nicole Casperson: (11:04)

I wholeheartedly agree. It's why I started with the FinTech was to bring that message across. I wanna think about it from the advisor seat in terms of authenticity and that being such a theme this morning when you're the advisor and you're thinking, okay, well, how do I bring my authentic self, which I think we're learning with the shift of the world, right? We're learning, how do we bring more of our personal self into the business? With us feeling as comfortable as possible, it's hard to be authentic. People think it's so easy. Oh, you just be yourself. But in reality, especially with your brand or whatever you're doing, it can be intimidating. So you had mentioned that with your work, you're helping advisors learn how to, how do they bring their authentic self to the table?

Kelly Keough: (11:51)

Yeah, I mean, I think there's two sides of that. I mean, we really focus a lot more on practice management now and helping people not just learn the technology that we equip them with and how to do their job in terms of the investment specifics. But it is really how do you have the softer skills? How do you relate? How do you have the conversation around individuals, their needs, their values, their goals, if as an industry we have to spend as much or more time on that than we do. I think even on educating folks about bonds or about alternatives or that type of stuff. The other side of that is I think in order to better connect with all of the clients, we need to be serving, we need to be us because, and us is broad.

Kelly Keough: (12:44)

And so we need everyone to be at the advisor table. We need to have a much more diverse advisor workforce across all of our firms that will allow us to then better attract a more diverse set of folks who then can take advantage of investing. Because one of the things that we know that women and diverse folks look for for many of us, all of us often is we look for somebody like us. And so as firms, it's critical that we broaden our workforce so that any of us can find somebody that we feel comfortable with in working on our finances. Now it doesn't have to be that way. We know that not all women wanna work with female advisors, right. And that's awesome. We really wanna provide that choice, but we want people who are empathetic, well trained, understand individuals, listen to them, take count their goals, their values long before products, and then ideally have that diverse range of advisors.

Nicole Casperson: (13:45)

And this is what makes data so exciting. Right? It's what makes the maturing data that we have exciting, because you can kind of leverage the personalization aspect on, on both ends. One to be your more authentic self as an advisor. And then also that translates to the way that you actually work with your end client. So what are some of the like kind of data practices or the things that make you excited on that front? When we think about having those personalized touchpoints.

Kelly Keough: (14:18)

So again, it goes back to helping the clients. So psychology, you asked how does my psychology background fit about keeping the client at the center? And so how do you bring then data points? So some of the things I, I love that we're doing is we're able to actually look and see how much people earn, how much they spend, how much are they saving? Do they have room to invest? And we're able to actually help them with a number here's what you might be able to save each month specifically to their situation. Clients don't find it creepy if it's personal and helpful. And so I think that's super important is that data can help us make that connectivity in these digital mediums, other areas we can see when those inflows come, we can see when people are sitting right now. We know that there's a fair amount of cash that folks are sitting on. How do we start having the conversation about what's the right thing to do with that? So again, it's looking, seeing that data and then encouraging them either through the digital interface and or encouraging them to talk to us importantly, they need help at navigating these times. And we have a wonderful opportunity by using the data that we have on them, on their accounts to then promote the conversation that a lot of folks are scared to have right now.

Nicole Casperson: (15:43)

And then help them get to the next best action. Right. Which is what we're all kind of after. We know it on the advisor side, but clients, whether they know it or not, that's what we're aiming for. I'd be curious, your thoughts on, like, how would you manage a client? Let's like a pretend client that maybe I imagine advisors have to deal with, but like say you kind of an advisor says these things like, Hey, I wanna do this, I wanna get to know you your values. What if they have a client that's like, this is crazy. What is this? Like, don't ask me about my values. Like, would you try to like help talk them through it and like debunk that a little bit with them and be like, no, we wanna get to the root of who you are or do you just say like, okay, well you just want me to build your wealth and that's it,

Kelly Keough: (16:26)

It's about meeting clients where they are. Yeah. I think maybe it's important to listen. And then secondly, is to help them understand that our job is to help them reach their goals. And so understanding their goals will allow us to more appropriately invest and help them invest. It's really being about client at the center.

Nicole Casperson: (16:47)

Okay. So kind of like just doing what makes them feel the most comfortable, so, okay. Got it. And I do kind of wanna go back a little bit to talking more about even just you and your journey. Could you share with us like this moment where you felt like wealth tech would be the place where you'd find your sense of belonging and kind of get to like all of these amazing insights that you have today?

Kelly Keough: (17:12)

I would say a couple things. One was, I, it really comes around. I think a couple things first is that technology can bring more people into investing. And so it was at that point where I also realized that my psychology background can help us create technology that better serves people cuz in the end it's about people. So I came in as a research psychologist, I started helping actually financial services companies and early in kind of the commercialization of the internet, helping people create technology that worked for people. But I first started actually working it with a startup that did collaborative financial planning software long before wow. We were really ready for it. And that was about that's actually, again goes back to the human question. And so I understood that I could help us build better technology to create that connectivity between humans and the technology really. So I think for me, I realized I belonged in this industry when I understood that technology allowed more people to invest to that. It's like, it's really a question about the people at the center. And then three, there were folks who I had the opportunity to work for incredible leaders who embraced that unique value that I brought to this table as opposed to looking for a cookie cutter of somebody else. And so that's a whole different topic we could maybe talk

Nicole Casperson: (18:41)

About. Maybe I would be curious if there was anyone in particular who helped you feel like you found or helped kind of bring you to this sense of belonging in the industry, anyone that mentored you or inspired you along the way.

Kelly Keough: (18:53)

Yeah. So, really I think of two people, I don't know that I'll name them specifically, but I'll talk about the characteristics. So I, in this first collaborative financial planning startup, I had the chance of interacting with somebody who then brought me to Schwab, where I spent the next 14 years of my career. And really, I think the hallmark of that relationship was he saw in me more than I saw in myself at any one point and gave me that opportunity that I didn't know I was ready for and embrace that unique value that I could bring to the table. And so, those are leadership capabilities that I aspire to each and every day when I'm working with my team and how we bring ourselves to work. And then secondly, was when I came to JP Morgan chase and I had mean away grown up at Charles Schwab, which is a self-directed online brokerage, very technology driven.

Kelly Keough: (19:50)

And I came to JP Morgan chase into the, really the private bank into our ultra high network wealth space and as very people centric and they had no digital experience in the entire business really and on the wealth side. And what was amazing was instead of rejecting then somebody who brought a human centric like approach to bringing technology into the wealth experience was instead, they embraced me for that unique perspective. And that was critical. I think not only for me to be able to bring myself in and to provide the value that I could, but then I think it actually helped unleash the business because it was a time when the leaders who brought me in were open to those unique perspectives at how we could interact with our clients. And in the end, the goal is how do we better serve our clients? And so to me, it's been a couple leaders who really had seen the unique value, embrace that and created the space for me to then run.

Nicole Casperson: (20:53)

I resonate with that entirely. And so you show up and they completely kind of embrace this human-centric mindset. So what are some of your tips for others that maybe struggle with that to embrace? How can more of us embrace this human-centric mindset in you know what is a very transactional wealth management industry?

Kelly Keough: (21:15)

Yeah. Well, there's going maybe two elements to your question. Okay. The first is how do we show up? And financial services is an industry that in and of itself is very intimidating. It has been historically dominated by a very small set of folks and a very consistent set of folks. And so I think the beautiful thing about it is, is we have broadened our client base, broadened our perspective, broadened the way that we provide access for our clients. And that to me, then my call to everyone is we need everyone to feel comfortable in this industry because it's only, then that we'll be able to serve everyone. You have a place at the table, the table is there for you. That seat is yours. You need to bring it, you to that seat and bring your unique self because it's that unique voice that allows us to then meet the needs of more people. So it's about also thinking about how do we serve everybody creating more space at the table and not letting our history of our industry feel like a barrier.

Nicole Casperson: (22:25)

Absolutely. Gems, really great actual piece of advice, right? That anyone I think can take home with them. You mentioned being a leader in the diversity equity and inclusion efforts, what are some examples of ways that your work is increasing that representation, that an inclusiveness that the industry so desperately needs. And I completely agree with you unless we have people at the top in the room where decision making is happening in the room where products are made, right then we're that are women or people of color and different and neurodiversity, all of the different forms of diversity, economic, unless those people are in the room where it happens. Thank you, Hamilton. Then we're never going to see that resonate with a more diverse demographic of users.

Kelly Keough: (23:11)

Yeah. So as I mentioned, it's really, I'd say two prongs to it. It's focusing on our employees and focusing on our clients. The employee side of it goes much deeper than it's certainly recruiting, but it's also training, retaining, creating the right space and environment. As we've said, creating leadership tables that demonstrate that we are committed to diversity. I am very proud to work at a firm where our top operating committee is over 50% women. And I'm proud to sit at a table who has a female CEO who has around 50% at her table as well. That's awesome. And that helps us again, make sure that if we think about our goal is to have roughly 50% of our investment balances driven by female based households or females, as well as 50% of our investment clients, all the way through the wealth spectrum. It's a lot easier to have those conversations and to bring those perspectives when you have diversity and representation at the leadership table. So in addition to the work that we're doing in the communities, in addition to the work that we are doing at creating offerings that speak to the life stages that people are going through, that I mentioned, it really comes back to setting that leadership example so that we can direct and change the organization.

Nicole Casperson: (24:35)

And I think whether, we realize it or not, I think the end user can feel it. Now they're paying attention. I host a show on YouTube and we that's for like millennial investors, we typically are talking about what should investors be looking out for? And talking about leadership is something we speak on often. And so I think that's happening more and more. And it's out there, it's out in the public and we need to be aware of that because otherwise it's one, it's just not a good look. And then two you're it's exactly. You're not gonna ever make the kind of impact that you hope to make as an advisor in the wealth management industry. If you aren't having other people in the room that can check your blind spots too, right? Like imagine the kind of ideas that can happen if you have all sorts of different people around you. And I get that can also be intimidating, cause it's easier in a sense, right. To hire people that are more similar to you. And maybe that starts with like first disrupting, like your network, right? Like the people immediately around you. What's some like tips, I guess around that for maybe the advisor that does struggle to have a more diverse inner circle or network of People.

Kelly Keough: (25:50)

Yeah. So many of you have development programs for us. That's been critical is starting at the very beginning. We're sponsoring scholarships at historically black colleges, to encourage people to get into the financial services industry. We have an advisor development program that is largely diverse that allows us then to create a more diverse pipeline for the longer term. And so we have to play the long game too, that in order to really create change, you have to think about where do you wanna be in five, 10 and 20 years in this industry. If we don't have the guts to think about that long term today, we won't make the change that we need to make because some of this does take time

Nicole Casperson: (26:37)

And perfectly kind of lending to one of my favorite questions to ask folks, which is and maybe this lends to a different topic, but if we need to be the change that we want to see, as you said, what change do you want to see in wealth tech and how will you continue to embody it?

Kelly Keough: (26:55)

Yeah. So, we need to be an industry that thinks about how do we help people not sell product. We need to think about how do we understand their needs? How do we use technology to get to more people we need? I think as an industry, in order to create changes is to use data, but to use the data, to understand people and then use our people as the connectivity, because, and to connect one on one with individuals. So to me, it's a combination being the change in our industry is not all tech and it's not all advisor, but as by bringing those together so that we can better serve our clients. And we have to challenge ourselves each and every day to evolve our models, because I think technology has allowed us to do more and our advisors can be even better than at connecting with people. So the change is continuing to find that intersection.

Nicole Casperson: (27:54)

Is there one person in the industry that folks should follow or who's, positively shaping this change that we're talking about.

Kelly Keough: (28:07)

I knew you were gonna ask me this question, cuz I listened to a lot of your podcasts. And I maybe I'm not a person who's a big fan person. I don't think it's one media person. I don't think it's one head of a firm, even though I maybe I should say that. I actually think that we need our industry to not change just from one influencer, but from the ground up. So to me it's really about those advisors, one on one and how they interact with people. And it's about the empowering our junior technologists to understand the people that they're serving. So to me, our industry is actually gonna change more, not from necessarily one pundit, one person in the media or one change maker. They're important. Don't get me wrong. Yeah. But at the same time, I really think it's about empowering and that touch throughout. That's gonna create that change. So I'm not gonna answer that question answer?

Nicole Casperson: (29:09)

You answered it. And may I add that? I think it's one of my favorite answers. Don't tell my other podcast guests, some of them might be in this room, but one of my favorite answers to that question, because I agree with you. I think that there's something to, obviously we should all have heroes that we that inspire us, but and people that we look up to, but I think that our industry and a lot of other industries, we are so hyper focused on like individualization and thinking like the currency in America, right. Is like perfectionism and that doing it all on your own being self-made being this or whatever. And like just, I'm sure as an advisor, you can probably get super lost. This happens to me as a content creator, you get super lost in your silos and thinking that you have to do everything yourself, but in reality, it's the team, right? Yeah. It's like the combination of the team, the leadership, the tech, right. And balancing it all. I think we have these like binary views of like, oh, Nope, it's this or it's that, but I think we should do more celebrating of, of the team and the people around you.

Kelly Keough: (30:07)

I agree you. Yeah. Well said,

Nicole Casperson: (30:09)

Thank you anyways. Okay. So I one of my last questions for you, but you know, what can we expect from you and JP Morgan, wealth management next whether it be on the wealth tech side and what you're building out there just some of your own goals within the wealth management space.

Kelly Keough: (30:28)

Yeah. So it's interesting. I'm at a point in my career where, okay, you heard me talk about my job. My goal was to get the best education. So I got a PhD. My goal was to then write a book by the time I was 30. So I did, I don't have those kinds of goals anymore. And it's really about the moments that are next and how you spend your time and the impact that you can have with that time. So, instead of thinking about, so what's next we often think about next is like, what's your like gonna be in five and 10 and 20 years, but for me next is this afternoon, I'm going back. And we have an innovation week at JP Morgan chase and it's where, not just our technologist, but the whole company is encouraged to get involved at taking a problem and finding innovative problems to ways to solve it.

Kelly Keough: (31:24)

And so we have these hackathons. And so to me, the next is like this afternoon, I have a chance to impact people and the solutions we bring to folks by, I get to go back and I get to see and judge, actually the solutions that people have been working on all week together in these multidisciplinary groups, in the hackathons and see the awesome experiences that they've put together. And then my job is to help bring those to market and to help bring those, to help our clients. So I'm at a point in my career, it's about spend choosing how to spend those moments and the next is having as much impact with them through others that I can

Nicole Casperson: (32:11)

Well said. Great closing thoughts, Kelly, thank you so much for this conversation. So amazing. I think this is something that everyone needs to hear, so I appreciate your authenticity.

Kelly Keough: (32:23)

Yeah.

Nicole Casperson: (32:23)

Thank

Kelly Keough: (32:23)

You.

Nicole Casperson: (32:23)

And being open and honest with me today. So everyone run applause for Kelly.

Kelly Keough: (32:28)

Thank you. Yeah. And to Nicole. Oh, okay.